So, in terms of unfair competition, where do you think the stigma belongs?
Well, I, I, have several things, I have two or three things to say about the whole idea of, of stigma. Ah, first of all, I think that this, the threshold idea that what it is about Affirmative Action stigmatizes people of color is the programs themselves is just, ah, a mistake. And I think it reflects first of all a really hollow conception of what it means to be stigmatized to begin with. Ah, because if you really look at that notion, what does it say? The idea is that if not for Affirmative Action then people of color, let's take Blacks as an example, would not be discriminated in, in contemporary American life. So the idea is, in theory at least, at some point in American history, there is supposed to have been a time when Black Americans were not stigmatized. But let's look at the reality of the American experience. Ah, whether you're talking about slavery or apartheid in the United States or post Second World War II de facto segregation. There's never been a point in time to begin with when, ah, Black Americans have not been stigmatized. Ah, before we were stigmatized because we were excluded. Now, we're stigmatized because we're included. But whether, whether your talking about someone a W.E.B. DuBois at the turn of the century who went to Harvard and studied sociology and had--